When the War Machine Decides: Algorithms, Secrets, and Accountability in Modern Conflict, with Brianna Rosen

Mar 26, 2024 31 min listen

In this probing discussion with Senior Fellow Arthur Holland Michel, Brianna Rosen, senior fellow at Just Security and the University of Oxford, discusses what we know (and what we don't) about Israel's use of AI in the war in Gaza and explains the fraught relationship between algorithmic decisions, transparency, and accountability. She also looks back at the last two decades of the U.S. drone strike program for clues about what the future of AI warfare might mean for justice and human rights.

When the War Machine Decides Spotify podcast link When the War Machine Decides Apple podcast link

ARTHUR HOLLAND MICHEL: Hello. My name is Arthur Holland Michel, and I am a senior fellow at Carnegie Council for Ethics in International Affairs. This episode of the Carnegie Council podcast is brought to you in collaboration with the Peace Research Institute Oslo as part of its RegulAIR project. RegulAIR is a multiyear research initiative about the integration of drones and other emerging technologies into everyday life.

I am very excited to be joined today by Brianna Rosen. Brianna is a strategy and policy fellow at the University of Oxford and a senior fellow at Just Security, where she writes about artificial intelligence (AI), drones, and military accountability.

Hi, Brianna. It is great to have you on.

BRIANNA ROSEN: Hi, Arthur. Thanks so much for having me on the podcast. It is a pleasure to be here with you today, having long admired your own work on this topic. I am sure we are in for a fascinating conversation.

ARTHUR HOLLAND MICHEL: Briefly could you introduce yourself to our listeners? Tell us a little about your professional background and how you became interested in these topics.

BRIANNA ROSEN: Absolutely. I have been working on technology and war for the past 15 years, first in the think tank world, then at the White House National Security Council during the Obama administration, and now at the University of Oxford and Just Security.

One of my primary areas of focus has been the U.S. drone program and the policies, principles, and laws that should govern it. My research on military AI has organically grown out of this, and I should say that I come at this issue from a normative perspective but as someone who has spent many years in the policy world and is fully cognizant of the pressures and tradeoffs that policymakers face.

ARTHUR HOLLAND MICHEL: I want to get to your work on drones later because it is so rich and fascinating, but I actually want to start a little closer to the present and talk about AI. In particular you have been tracking in your writing over recent months a very interesting case of the use of AI in the war in Gaza. For those listeners who maybe are not aware of what technology is being deployed in that conflict and what it is being used for, can you give us an overview of what might be going on as we understand it?

Carnegie Council for Ethics in International Affairs is an independent and nonpartisan nonprofit. The views expressed within this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the position of Carnegie Council.

You may also like

SEP 12, 2024 Article

From Principles to Action: Charting a Path for Military AI Governance

As AI reshapes war's ethical dimensions, stakeholders must work together on greater transparency and governance efforts for this emerging technology, writes Dr. Brianna Rosen.

APR 9, 2024 Video

Algorithms of War: The Use of AI in Armed Conflict

From Gaza to Ukraine, the military applications of AI are fundamentally reshaping the ethics of war. How should policymakers navigate AI’s inherent trade-offs?

Left to Right: Eleonore Fournier-Tombs, Ambassador Chola Milambo, Ambassador Anna Karin Eneström, Doreen Bogdan-Martin, Vilas Dhar. CREDIT: Bryan Goldberg.

SEP 19, 2024 Video

Unlocking Cooperation: AI for All

On the eve of the Summit of the Future, Carnegie Council and UNU-CPR hosted a special event exploring the implications of AI for the multilateral ...